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Gingerman HPDE - 12 October

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  • #31
    I just wrapped up my G-man season a week after you guys with the Alfa club this past Saturday. Had a great time. I've been focusing on trying to learn the line, and it's finally starting to come around. That track is very technical and I really struggled with it the first couple times there. I'm running constant 1:51s now. I know that's a long way from the S2000s potential even when stock, as mine is, but I had blast. I don't know how many of you ran or are running stock S2000's there but I'm very curious what you consider to be 2nd gear corners and what you consider as 3rd gear corners? Can anyone help?
    Dave
    now - '59 white MGA
    past - '01 S2000 (nine years), four other MGAs, Spitfire, Stag, 63 Vette

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    • #32
      #3 could be top of 2nd but you can carry enough speed to make 3rd work very well. All the rest are 3rd.

      Jason Saini's pal Sean showed me a new line through #3 that allows you to carry that speed on my last session there.

      We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die and then fail to see the friggin irony in that.

      When fascism comes to America, it'll come wrapped in a flag and carrying the cross.

      Comment


      • #33
        Thanks Harry. As you know I'm running OEM tires and a stock engine -- which is not even close to what you're running. Can I assume you've factored that in? I know you're carrying a lot more speed than I am at the apex but you've got bigger gonads then I do! I've been running all my corners in 3rd and just started experimenting with some 2nds. #6, for example, sure felt faster on power out in 2nd.

        I was watching the VW club of Chicago club on Sunday. #3 is a very interesting turn as are most the G-Man turns. It looks like a late center apex would carry the most speed. I noticed the pavement in the center has a few favorable degrees banking to it. Pinching upsets the car here. Further left might have some possiblities but I didn't see any trying it.

        It seems to me that anyone who could get their car setup fast for G-Man, could be fast anywhere since it's so technically demanding.

        How was RA?
        Dave
        now - '59 white MGA
        past - '01 S2000 (nine years), four other MGAs, Spitfire, Stag, 63 Vette

        Comment


        • #34
          Hmm...

          I wasn't referring to high speed stuff at other tracks only in straight lines...

          There's a big difference between running a 60ft wide track 90 degree corner at 85-90 mph and running a 45ft wide track 90 degree corner at 55-60 mph. Both are at the traction limits for their speed/radius/surface... but the person who can handle the 90 mph corner will probably have the guts and skill to run the narrower, tighter corner at speed, however, the reverse is probably not true. Believe it or not, have the cajones is a big part of making a corner- and if you are out of your comfort level you will not be as quick. GingerMan just does not have a high speed 4th gear corner for S2000s (T4 doesn't count!), T9 is too low speed and technical to get 4th really spinning... hell, you barely ever even get into fifth gear- only on the back stretch for half a straight, back into 3rd for T11, 4th up the incline to T1 back to 3rd until after T2...

          Brad! By the way, I was running Harry's car at Road America (thanks again Harry!)... it loves that track! Now if my little white car had about 500lbs less weight it could make quick work of some of those corners. FYI we have a stroker kit coming for the white car- looking at about 750whp w/4000rpm power band. Loved the comment the lady who was along for a ride with me said... "You're crazy!" Pulling 6th gear before the pit out on the main in my second session. I've never pulled so many gears up before... If I were to estimate my times... I would say no slower than a high 2.4x.xx since I was getting some really, really good exit speed out of the corners- good enough to really chase people down. I would say Road America is a cajones track... Laguna is a braking finesse track... In terms of absolute skill needed I would say Road America is tops of the tracks I've driven so far.

          Comment


          • #35
            Hmm... Strange.

            The time line for my last post is before the first one I made on this thread!

            Comment


            • #36
              I think we have a clock issue again....

              RA scares the crap out of me. You are just going too fast for too long on that track. On the other hand, it is kind of boring because you are just going straight-line fast for so long - does that make any sense???? The white car on that track must be insane (I need to get a ride sometime ...)!!!

              But, yes - there are very few T1's and "Kinks" at other tracks. Hell, even T7 is really fast. The most fun for me is T13 - let it slide baby.....

              Laguna is just awesome - it demands respect all the time with the walls so close.
              Deleted signature for the safety of my cars.....

              Please note that my posts are not personal attacks - they are my observations/opinions - your opinions may vary.

              Comment


              • #37
                Dave,

                I've tried to send a PM twice and it tells me that I'm can't do that. Call me at 630.670.6050 and I'll explain the Ford stuff.
                We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die and then fail to see the friggin irony in that.

                When fascism comes to America, it'll come wrapped in a flag and carrying the cross.

                Comment


                • #38
                  T3 is a braking turn- requires more finesse on braking... turn in is slow, not as slow as T2, but slow nonetheless.

                  The apex is later than most think- it is also on the curb. Track out to the edge on the left where there's a small dirt patch after the rumble strip.

                  It should be a 3rd gear turn. I downshift to third for it and upshift for 4th by T4.

                  FYI GingerMan is technical, but lacks a fundamental- speed. It's probably one of the slowest tracks I've driven- good for learning patience, bad for high speed skills. Blackhawk is better but more dangerous, Grattan is slow everywhere also except for the front straight.

                  To be fast anywhere requires you to have the ability to drive at any speed... and GingeMan does not give the driver that opportunity to practice at elevated speeds.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Sorry, the car set-up was NOT taken into consideration.

                    Adjustments:
                    #2 - If you brake down on street tires after 1 and near the blend line, you can downshift into 2nd, skip the first apex marker and go to full acceleration through the second apex marker straight to the outrun heading down to #3.

                    #3 - Brake a little early, move to the right bump strip about mid-hill, downshift to 2nd before you get to the bump strip, accelerate while putting your right tire into the dirt to the right of the bump strip and shoot out and over to the top. Be very ready to shift because you'll run out of 2nd gear quickly.

                    #6 - On street tires, I agree with your approach unless you can learn to carry more speed into #5 and through to #6 by letting the car slide a little. That should leave you nice and balanced to power through #7 to sweep the next turn.

                    blah has done quite a few laps at Gman with street tires. I suggest that you send a PM to him with a pointer to this thread and get his views.

                    RA was a little treacherous. Folks tend to forget that even though the temperatures were ideal and the sun was shining, it's shining from such a low angle that parts of the track don't warm up very much. The Kink and Canada Corner, for example, don't get any sun at all during the day. #7 and the Carousel get sun but at a very low angle. They also tend to forget that if you are driving with urgency your average speed around the track is at or above 95 mph. (Jason Saini was down in the very low 2:40's which is over 97 mph average while my best laps were 2:48.) If you loose the car at that speed you better me damn good and damn smooth to recapture control.

                    So, about 14 cars had significant body damage, broke suspensions (hit walls, kitty litter or another car) or blew engines (3 blown engines).

                    I was also very unhappy with Lou Gigolotti (spelling?) and his instructor crew who where there giving seminars. If I were younger, bigger and stronger, I'd have punched one of those zipperheads in the mouth. They were the 4 most discourteous and hazardous drivers out of the 100+ cars that showed up. One of their drivers even "t-boned" a R-type Mustang with his competition Z0-6. I had one that was obviously having handling problems where he would blow me away on the straight only to get caught up in the turns. He ignored at least a dozen blue flags. I was on his ass for three laps before I got angry and went to the pit lane to let some space develop between me and him. I asked the organizers tech guy to speak to them about track protocol. It did not seem to do any good. They were zipperheads for the whole weekend.

                    Based on their performance at RA, I doubt that you will see them giving seminars at any of the track events that I organize.

                    For all of the obvious reasons, most of the incidents occurred in Canada. #14 collected three incidents. I don't know why but the braking zone for #14 was not stick at all. After getting my car sideways there a few times I just let it run out to the second bumper strip on each lap. That worked so well that I may keep it in my RA file folder for permanent use.
                    We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die and then fail to see the friggin irony in that.

                    When fascism comes to America, it'll come wrapped in a flag and carrying the cross.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I will in all instances defer to Nick's advice.
                      We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die and then fail to see the friggin irony in that.

                      When fascism comes to America, it'll come wrapped in a flag and carrying the cross.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        dlq - here's my advice.....

                        At G-man stay in 3rd everywhere except T3. This way you can focus on the line and drive the line instead of worrying about gearing. You then can push the car alittle more each lap without changing your foot work. As you get more comfortable and are carrying more speed you will find that 3rd is a good gear for most corners.

                        To help you - get rides in the other stock S2000's that might be a bit faster to see the kinds of speeds you should be carrying - this will help with the confidence issues about "can I go that fast??".

                        Agreed that G-man doesn't teach you high speed stuff, but RA is about the only track in the Midwest that is high-speed. I like G-man because it is relatively safe and the speeds aren't high enough to mean real danger if you go off. Grattan is another track that I love - I just wish they would resurface it.

                        BTW Nick - I think your 600+hp monster enjoys the high-speed stuff a bit more than the S2000's and the Lotus'.
                        Deleted signature for the safety of my cars.....

                        Please note that my posts are not personal attacks - they are my observations/opinions - your opinions may vary.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by meat
                          dlq - here's my advice.....

                          At G-man stay in 3rd everywhere except T3. This way you can focus on the line and drive the line instead of worrying about gearing. You then can push the car alittle more each lap without changing your foot work. As you get more comfortable and are carrying more speed you will find that 3rd is a good gear for most corners.

                          Harry, Nick, Brad thanks for the advice.

                          On my first time there I was pounding the rev limiter with 2nd gear turns and bad lines. I had read a post by Stealthy that almost every turn was a 2nd gear turn, so I tried it. Brad, I've been doing all the T's in 3rd the last couple times there. That's the advice I got from buddy with the MGA with the idea of concentrating on the entry, apex, and exit lines. This last trip there I got to thinking 2nd would work better in some, as I was having trouble keeping the rpms above 7500. But from what I'm hearing from everyone, I'm probably just not carrying enough speed & rpms, as opposed to being in too high a gear.

                          Nick, my buddy Dave Smith who races the Vintage MGA and I were discussing this top speed thing with Bob the track manager while we were there.

                          Side story - Smith was approached by a member of the Corvette group that was there, 05s and 06s, while he was in the can. The Vette guy said the reason they weren't passing him in the point by's were they couldn't! Could he please lift off the throttle as it was embarrassing to them! That just made his day. His 40 year old car with a 1.6 liter (tweaked to be sure) vs their 350+ whatever engines.

                          Back to our discussion. Bob said more and more cars and teams from Mid-Ohio, etc. are now scheduling at G-Man. After a few familiarity days they have all agree that's there's not a heck'va lot you learn about your car going fast in a straight line. He said Ford was just there testing the new GT40 in the rain and they were beating the Ferrari Cup Car they brought to compare by 2 seconds a lap. Since I've driven (not raced) RA, MidOhio, Glen, Mosport, etc. I do understand where you're coming from.
                          Dave
                          now - '59 white MGA
                          past - '01 S2000 (nine years), four other MGAs, Spitfire, Stag, 63 Vette

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Dave - I think you've got the idea. The problem with 2nd gear is that you are really "beating" on the car because you are in 2nd for such a short time each time you grab it. I think you will find that you will be at redline before you reach trackout in alot of corners, so you are being held back a bit unless you shift mid-corner. My take is to be easier on the car and try to carry more speed.
                            Deleted signature for the safety of my cars.....

                            Please note that my posts are not personal attacks - they are my observations/opinions - your opinions may vary.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Dave,

                              I understand Nick's comments. While I love Gingerman because I can drive there relatively safely, I have to pinch myself once in awhile to wake up. It's not an attention getter. Grattan, on the other hand, requires that you be wide awake for every damn second.

                              While it's true that Gman is getting testing from MO-based teams, and, while I must further agree that you can test straight line stuff anywhere (even a long driveway), I respectfully suggest that Gman is offering the MO-based teams pricing "that they can't refuse" to get them there.

                              I'll comment to you about Ford in a PM but there were very special reasons for it being there.
                              We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die and then fail to see the friggin irony in that.

                              When fascism comes to America, it'll come wrapped in a flag and carrying the cross.

                              Comment

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